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Subject: Forgiveness - For you to give, or not
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Skye User is Offline
aka Marvin
Grand Master MINION
Grand Master MINION
Posts: 1048

03/28/2007 9:21 PM Alert 

Is it healthy for people to be quick to forgive?

Forgiveness, in my book, is one of the most overused concepts in dealing with so-called "wrongdoers" or folks who perpetrate outright evil. It depowers the innocent and empowers the not-so-innocent.

The basic premise of "forgiveness" is always explained by those in recovery as a means of "letting go" of the pain and rage so that one can have a serene, clean sober life.

Well, my friends, I have a real problem playing with fire just because it makes one "feel better."

Forgiveness is defined first as "absolving" or "granting pardon" for an offense. When one pardons another, he or she basically releases them from obligation or penalty. When one absolves another, he or she frees the other from guilt or blame or responsibility or consequences.

When someone commits an illegal act involving you – battery, abuse – it is not an offense solely involving you, it is an offense against society and the civil and moral rules which govern it. Does this warrant forgiveness or reporting to the police?

Look at it this way, if the person has to deal with the righteous consequences of their actions, they have the opportunity to cleanse their soul, and psyche, and lives from self-centered, thoughtless or immoral tendencies.

Far too  often  perpetrators never take responsibility, never display remorse, never try to repair the damage and never give the impression that their behavior wouldn't be repeated.

Nonetheless, the victim is often nagged  to "forgive".  How is that healing?

Does that not trivialize the hurt the victim is feeling?  People are often urged to forgive the unforgivable in the name of "peace" or "letting go of ugly emotions."

The lack of true remorse beg for no forgiveness.

Telling some one to  forgive is a further insult to the victim. Those who are hurt are  entitled to their feelings and can only  gain strength from standing up to  blase attitudes about evil-doers.

What too many people aren't told by the "therapists", "clergy," and some "12 Steppers" who urge "knee-jerk" forgiveness, is that not holding people accountable, not telling and showing them that their actions have severe consequences, will likely make you feel less important and make your pain feel inconsequential.

Yes, there are things that are unforgivable. Don't let folks bully you into forgiveness when, indeed, it is likely to be a further assault upon your well-being.

What of the greatest betrayals of all , that of a parent. Many in recovery, and out, have sufffered all sorts of abuse from parents for years. Take for example, an adult child dealing with a dying mother, and feeling intense guilt for not having love for the mother. Yet,  trying to be a decent person and showing "that woman" compassion while she was dying.

You  must love her, after all she is your mother right ?  Wrong- Actually, you don't love her. How could you, considering all she did and didn't do. One doesn't love because the other has a 'title' of mother or father or husband or wife . It is still earned. Not by being perfect – no person or parent is – but at least by not being evil.

So many years are spent trying to follow the mantra that you should forgive and will attain peace. To do that you would have to deny the reality of the truth, of the damage to you, of the loss of a childhood, of the work you were still doing to recover and survive as a normal person with a life you could enjoy and make meaningful.

Why do so many of us believe that we have to forgive or we are bad. In reality, is it not more healing to accept that there are some things you mustn't forgive and that love is earned.

Only when we accept these ideas can we truly come to peace with our past. With no forgiveness, you have demonstrated to yourself your own value and the magnitude of the unholy assault on an innocent child.

When people tell you to forgive just so that you can move on or create peace for them – don't give it.

Forgiving somebody when there is no repentance, no true remorse, no true attempt to repair it, no attempt to make things different, I think is absurd. I think it's ridiculous, pseudo-religion.

To say, "I'm going to let this go and not be obsessed with it every day so I can go on and be my own decent person," that seems to me to be emotionally and psychologically healthy.

But to risk further injury or to say, "Therefore there should be no justice," to me is…I see that stuff as blasphemous. When people  say, "I'm in an abusive relationship, he's beating my kids, having sex with the dog, but I'm forgiving him and God says I shouldn't leave," I say, You're using God's name in vain and using the name of God to justify bad behavior.

And there's a lot of that going on, because people don't have the courage to face realities and fight for justice and stand up against evil.

I think standing up against evil is one of the toughest things to do, and most avoid the effort.

Be Strong and  Go  On.


 


Recovery is Contagious...Start an Epidemic
carrie User is Offline
MINION Wizard
MINION Wizard
Posts: 468

03/28/2007 9:56 PM Alert 
0 0 0 gimme some time to 'digest' this.........cuz err, i'm seeing that a bit clearer these days, hugs the martian for telling the TRUTH......... bbl, when I have more to share.......love this quote "Even the oppressed when pushed to hard will rise UP against their Oppressors"....amen.

To a desolate person an act of kindness can be the difference between getting bitter and getting better..............
Carol User is Offline
Trusted Servant
Grand Master MINION
Grand Master MINION
Posts: 1074

03/29/2007 10:29 AM Alert 
Amen, Skye!!!!! Thank you!

Be the change you wish to see in the world ...Gandhi
Glenn H User is Offline
Supreme MINION
Supreme MINION
Posts: 161

03/29/2007 7:35 PM Alert 
Thank you Skye. I really like that last bit about standing up against evil. The whole post was great but that part stood out to me the most. I don't have to explain why I don't thnk. I do the best I can and am getting better.

LOVEYA MAN! Glenn H

Center your heart, and cultivate your spirit.
Ringo User is Offline
Junior REALMite
Junior REALMite
Posts: 0

05/25/2007 2:52 PM Alert 
WOW! Thanks a lot Skye.
Ringo
Bri_1 User is Offline
Junior REALMite
Junior REALMite
Posts: 0

05/26/2007 7:18 AM Alert 
This is just my opinion and obviously not in tune with signals sent in certain recovery circles.
I truly believe that not “everything” is forgivable. However it is essential that the victim accept what’s happened. My live is the total sum of all the events that occurred when I was present. And to deny any part of my life simply because its to hurtful to deal with could have even worse consequences. It’s unfortunate but sometimes bad things happen to good people. And time does not heal all wounds. It does however allow me the space to sort things out and find a place to put this hurt..

If nothing else the chains can break here and now. Certain behaviors are unacceptable. I no longer have to accept bad behavior from anyone today. I don’t have to settle for less.

Its real easy to preach forgiveness when your on the giving side of the stick. To often I’ve seen it used only to ease the conscience of the person doing the harms. Thank God I can see things truthfully today. A thick skin and a good filtering system.

Rationalization , justification , and minimizing are dangerous tools for "anyone" to use. Rationalization is defined as using a social acceptable reason for a socially unacceptable behavior. And a socially unacceptable behavior is insanity.

I got sober not stupid!!!!
Sobergirl User is Offline
Supreme MINION
Supreme MINION
Posts: 202

05/26/2007 12:44 PM Alert 
WOW!! What TRUTH..gotta figure out why my knees are shaking ..aactually everything is ..Lots unresolved in this area...all in it's right time I think..Thank you Skye ((Hugs))

MIRACLES HAPPEN !!!

.. No HUMAN Power could have relieved me of ANYTHING !!!!!!! hugs!!
kim User is Offline
Junior REALMite
Junior REALMite
Posts: 0

05/26/2007 2:03 PM Alert 
Posted By Skye on 03/28/2007 9:21 PM

Forgiving somebody when there is no repentance, no true remorse, no true attempt to repair it, no attempt to make things different, I think is absurd. I think it's ridiculous, pseudo-religion. 
 



I agree with you on everything you said and it was right on time. And this is exactly why I have had to let go of many relationships where they abused and didnt see it or even care not to but yet called themselves christian. and started doing what was best for me instead of always trying to have peace for them when peace was never allowed for me. I could only do that by letting go of them. If that makes sense. .

Onion User is Offline
Junior REALMite
Junior REALMite
Posts: 0

05/26/2007 5:00 PM Alert 
I sure wouldn't want you as my sponsor. How self-righteous. You opinion is not a very healthy one and is almost cutl-like. It is an attempt to indoctrinate the vulnerable.

How absurd. As if you have a right to judge another person & to decide what is & isn't forgiveable. That's not implying in any way tolerate abuse. We shouldn't in my opinion.

Has God not forgiven you. Has He not accepted you. Are you perfect. Have you never abused anyone.In fact - you sound like an abuser. An in fact - it sounds like you area a control freak and I wouldn't doubt if you have be banned from this site for confronting you for what I believe is a very unhealthy message.

Very self-righteous. Stop trying yo be God. Sound cult-like to me.

I pity your anger.
Larry User is Offline
Trusted Servant
Master MINION
Master MINION
Posts: 716

05/26/2007 5:53 PM Alert 
Thanks Skye. I love this and it makes me think. I to do not believe that all things are forgivable. I may have to accept that these things happened but I do not have to forgive.

It's a good day to be sober
Sobergirl User is Offline
Supreme MINION
Supreme MINION
Posts: 202

05/26/2007 7:05 PM Alert 
Thanks Skye for the great Post ! Real thought provoking and discussion worthy post!! I in no way equate "forgiveness" with condoning or accepting anyone's abusive or unaccptable behaviour. I think that a lot of people get confused on what a person's definition of forgiveness is. Same thing with "Letting go and Letting God" we just don't have control over other people..all we have control over is ourselves and our actions and behaviours..what actions we chose to take, how we chose to treat Ourselves, and how long we chose to let someone continue to control us by renting space in our heads - Sometimes we need to get help with that. I think each person is different in the timing of these things. Great post !  I had to wait to post on this..brought up a lot of feelings for me. (Hugs)

MIRACLES HAPPEN !!!

.. No HUMAN Power could have relieved me of ANYTHING !!!!!!! hugs!!
Ma'iinganikwe User is Offline
Junior REALMite
Junior REALMite
Posts: 0

05/26/2007 9:36 PM Alert 

Forgiveness is a toughie, or at least it was for me - until I heard it explained this way......

A lady was on Oprah, saying that she has forgiven the man who kidnapped, brutally raped and then killed her daughter.  Everyone one was shocked!  As was I!  But to her, forgiving meant that that person, act, deed, etc., no longer rents %100 of her brain.  Nothing can ever change, but it also doesn't need to occupy her very waking thought.

For myself, that is how describe forgiveness and that has helped me immensely!!

Skye, miigwetch wendaam for this post!

Melanie User is Offline
Trusted Servant
PRINCESS
PRINCESS
Posts: 20385

05/27/2007 10:37 AM Alert 
Posted By Onion on 05/26/2007 5:00 PM
I sure wouldn't want you as my sponsor. How self-righteous. You opinion is not a very healthy one and is almost cutl-like. It is an attempt to indoctrinate the vulnerable.

How absurd. As if you have a right to judge another person & to decide what is & isn't forgiveable. That's not implying in any way tolerate abuse. We shouldn't in my opinion.

Has God not forgiven you. Has He not accepted you. Are you perfect. Have you never abused anyone.In fact - you sound like an abuser. An in fact - it sounds like you area a control freak and I wouldn't doubt if you have be banned from this site for confronting you for what I believe is a very unhealthy message.

Very self-righteous. Stop trying yo be God. Sound cult-like to me.

I pity your anger.
You misunderstand the original posting Onion.
First, if God has forgiven me, if is because I ASKED to be forgiven.
Secondly, many abusers, sinners don't even want to be forgiven cause they don't see where they have hurt people. You are assuming these people have ASKED for forgiveness. If those people were honoring God's word they wouldn't be hurting people like they have. They have broken the contract with God.
No one here is trying to be God. We are all entitled to our own opinions. Any judging that I see is from you.
Maybe you are assuming you know what people have gone thru? What their lives have been like?
Mayhaps you need to read the posting again?
Just a suggestion
I have read and reread it and fail to understand the reference to "cult like"
Yours in recovery,,,,,
Melanie



" The only thing neccessary for evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing."
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